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Kerry Blue Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club Proposed Change To Breed Standard 14

KC Breed Standard

DIBTC Breed Standard Change 14




Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club (Below this are some comments from their FaceBook Group)

The Irish Kennel Club had requested the original parent breed clubs of all the breeds of Irish origin to submit any changes, additions or clarifications that they thought were necessary to the breed standard.
All proposed changes were submitted to the Board of The Irish Kennel Club and were made available to ALL members of An Ard Comhairle (High Council, made up of clubs with representation) for 2 months for comment before being recommended by the Board and subsequently passed by An Ard Comhairle.
The Kerry Blue Terrier standard has not changed but has some additions.
An extra section has being added to assist judges in understanding TYPE, and under colour, an approach to white markings on the body has been added as the standard only identifies a single colour with no exceptions.
Please note below inroduction to the standard.
The Essence of The Kerry Blue Terrier
There are certain characteristics and features that make individual breeds of dogs unique. In canine terms this is called 'TYPE'.
The following has been compiled by to assist Judges
in establishing an attitude towards 'TYPE' in Kerry Blue Terriers.
Overall appearance and ring presence
The Kerry Blue Terrier should have a free-standing, assertive upstanding body posture with it's head held high. The tail should be carried straight or slightly forward. All this combines to create a clear look of focus and dominance.
This is well described by the old saying ' He should own the ground he stands on'.
The Kerry Blue should have a distinct and unique expression. It should demonstrate terrier intensity and be 'hard', not 'soft', not'cute', nor obediently begging for a biscuit.
Physically this is gained from the following:
A rather deep set dark eye, and ears that are medium in size, have the fold slightly above the level of the skull and are carried close to the side of the head with the tips pointing to the corner of the eye.
A small ear carried high on the head gives an incorrect 'cute' expression and low dropped ears make the expression too 'soft'.
Correct eyes, ears, head carriage with an assertive attitude create the 'True Blue Expression
Born black, they gradually change to any shade of blue, from an almost silver grey to a very dark blue which is sometimes described as 'midnight blue'. All are correct.
A feature sometimes found in coloured dogs is darker colouring on the socks, hocks, tail, and beard than on the body and is seen as a bonus by many breeders.
As they mature and start the gradual colouring process the coat can develop a brownish hue (particularly on the legs). This should not be penalised as it is usually a sign the the colour is on it's way.
It is important for judges to understand that this is a gradual process and though we all would prefer an adult dog's colour finished, once a dog has started to colour it should not be heavily penalised.
The Kerry Blue has a single coat that is `non-shedding' however is should be plentiful and not sparse. It should be soft to the touch with an obvious sheen.(never a dull matt finish).
It should have a gentle wave or half curl.
A coat that is harsh, wool like, tight curled or totally lacking in sheen should be penalised.
A typical finished adult Kerry Blue Terrier should have an assertive upstanding and independent posture(not stacked). It should have great ring presence with a determined expression and be clearly coloured with obvious bloom (shine) in it's coat.
As these are the features and characteristics that make the breed unique a lot of importance should be placed on them and though the entire standard is important extra credit should should be given to dogs who posses these qualities.
Addition to colour
A white patch of skin anywhere is a disqualification fault.
Puppies may have a small blaze of white hair on the chest which usually grows out with age. Adult dogs may have a few small white hairs on the chest which though not desirable, are acceptable. Adult dogs with an obvious white patch or blaze of hair on the chest should be downgraded.
Cathy Delmar,
Hon Sec.

Ross Delmar I have been asked by The Dublin Irish Blue Terrier club to post the above statement .

Is this change to the Breed Standard the concoction of 'Power Mad' people who want their 'Legacy' to be; "We Changed The Breed Standard"?

In all walks of life 'Power Mad' people are desperate to leave behind a legacy for the History books. Prime Ministers are classic examples of this practice. However, policy changes doesn't really have that much an impact in History. War does. It is either success or failure and will always be Historic. This is why Prime Ministers are always ready to take Brave Men To War. Tony Blair is a classic example of this and is still in denial that him and George W Bush are responsible for the loss of over a Million Iraqis in a war that was based on a Lie.
Bush once said; " You Can Fool Some Of The People Some of The Time; And Some Of The People All Of The Time, And These Are The Ones You Should Concentrate On."

Are the people who have gone along with this proposal being manipulated in the way that George W Bush described; Or are they just 'Marionettes' dancing to the tune of their 'Puppet Masters'?
Do not be taken in by the 'Haw Haw Haw' joke tellers who are also akin to Shakespeare's 'iago'. These people care nothing for the breed other than the Power that they can wield and their Holiday Judging Appointments.


2 October at 16:47 • Like • 2
Helge Kvivesen Can anyone please explain the reason for this addition to the standard? As far as I know there are no other disqualifying faults

2 October at 17:12 • Like • 11
Mark McGonagle Thanks for posting! A lot of people getting the wrong end of the stick. Hope this clears everything up for the people who haven't actually read the new addition to the breed standard

2 October at 17:25 • Like
Diane Ridd Thank you.

2 October at 18:12 • Like
Lynn Mathers It is unacceptable of the club to forthright state "A white patch of skin anywhere is a disqualification, but that puppies can have a white blaze ( genetics points out that white hair grows out of white skin). You continue on stating that the adults with white hairs should be downgraded. What is your definition of downgraded? If you have a dog that absolutely meets your definition of "Type" but has a bit of a white patch, do you put up a dog with no reach and drive because it has perfect coat color? Some lines of Kerries have passed a white chest patch down from the first dogs in the Kerry origination. Genetics plays a huge portion in this equation and I would have thought that your Ard Comhairle, would accept that many breeders look for "your Type" and take the genetic white patch as an added bonus to identify the genetic line this dog came down from. If the Irish club is so caught up on a patch of white on the chest, perhaps they need to move into the 21st century and be more concerned about the genetic health of the animal so we can continue to proclaim the Kerry as one of the healthiest dog out there. In the meantime, I'm not going to get all tied up about a white patch on my Kerry's chest.

2 October at 18:16 • Like • 11
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers Can the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club please explain to dedicated Kerry Blue Terrier breeders & fanciers world-wide what is the MOTIVATION behind this change to penalize white chest patches that have always been accepted in our breed and both the US and UK breed standards allow them ? Also the Irish standard for Irish Terriers allows white on chest and that is a close relative to the Kerry Blue Terrier. White chest patches have been frequently seen especially in lines with correct type of coat & early colour, this irrational decision is most likely going to have a very bad effect on the type of coat & colour in the breed in the future, not to mention the gene-pool. Also, the wording is very confusing, it says "A white patch of skin anywhere is a disqualification fault". Since the standard doesn't describe the colour of the skin of a Kerry Blue Terrier and it is actually very difficult to look for skin colour through kerry blue hair - white chest patches will be most likely seen as "white patches of skin", thus these dogs will be disqualified by some/many judges. Not that it would matter that much as down-grading is nearly as bad ! No other terrier standard uses the term "down-grading". Grading of dogs should be left on to the judges individual decision. As the standard says and this is a generic part that is included in all FC standards :... the seriousness with which the fault should be regarded should be in exact proportion to its degree and its effect upon the health and welfare of the dog. An Ard Comhairle surely is the IKC's decision making authority but with all respect, it doesn't contain of Kerry Blue Terrier specialists. Why the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club didn't consult the matter with other Irish breed club(s), like the Ulster KBT Club for example, this club has more members that are active breeders & exhibitors than the Dublin Blue Club ?

2 October at 18:16 • Like • 14
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers We have much more questions to ask but will wait if the club will give any answers....

2 October at 18:18 • Like • 3
Hugh Jordan Is white a politically correct way of saying Pink?. I remember having input in to the Essence of the breed. The colour part is a later addition added since I became inactive in the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club. The 2014 schedule has me listed as an Office bearer in the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club, this is an error that the club should have noticed. The addition on colour is badly worded . Something that is obvious to one may not be obvious to an other. Just to enlarge on what has been said by the club." Parent breed clubs with representation" at that time that would have been "Dublin Irish Blue Terrier" and "International Kerry Blue Terrier" (IKBT is based in cork)

2 October at 18:24 • Like
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers An Irish bred dog, Cruft's winner, Multi Champion, influential stud dog that made his mark in the history of the breed, especially in the continental Europe. He is one of many in our breed's history with "obvious white patch". So by the new standard, he is a pet ?

2 October at 18:27 • Like • 9
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers And one of the latest in the irish show ring, Irish bred dog, Irish & UK Champion, BIS at all breed championship level in Ireland, Ireland's Champion of Champions with many other top honours under highly respected judges and also the sire of US Top Kerry......is he pet now ?

2 October at 18:32 • Like • 8
Helge Kvivesen The change of wording in the standard is one thing, but why the sudden interest in a white patch? It has been accepted since the early beginning of the breed, and there has been no fuzz about it. And how come this is to be treated as the most severe fault in the breed? To expect this feature to disappear is as likely as wanting a blue sky without any white clouds.

2 October at 18:35 • Like • 22
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers Very well said Helge Kvivesen !

2 October at 18:39 • Like • 3
Hugh Jordan The smallest of white patches is now a down grade a down graded dog can not have a greenstar. Define obvious? Imagine a dog of the most glorious colour of Silver blue, Black Beard, socks and tail. a white patch as small as a pea would be obvious on such a dog now the greenstar should be witheld?

2 October at 18:46 • Edited • Like • 10
Lynn Mathers So basically, what the Irish Blue Terrier Club and it's Ard Comhairle is going to do is require more dogs to be colored before going in the ring. So instead of inspiring more natural dogs in the ring, these people are encouraging exhibitors to cover up "minor imperfections" before they put their dogs up against another's. Thanks a lot to the parent club who is supposed to be encouraging their exhibitors to be transparent, now "basically demanding that an exhibitor cover up natural imperfections" in their dogs. Maybe we the exhibitors should write a Standard that all the "Ard Comhairle" need to be required to meet and anyone not meeting the standard we could downgrade then disqualify them because they don't meet the Standard. How does that sound?

2 October at 19:03 • Like • 9
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers Lynn Mathers, it will be worse, with this new change, breeders will start to gradually eliminate puppies with white patches, especially newbies that don't understand the history or genetics behind and such puppies will only go to pet homes. New breeders will start using the lines with white patches less and less so they don't have to deal with the issue. In Europe, the lines that frequently have white patches are the ones with the best coat texture & early colour, that is the biggest irony of it all !! If we accept this irrational change, it is going to have a huge negative impact on our breed.

2 October at 19:26 • Like • 15
Katalin Burovincz I do not understand this new rule at all. I think the bigger problem is too much too dark or black kerry. I can't see anything about it the new standard. I hope someone will tell us why the white patch on the chest is so important problem in this breed.

2 October at 20:15 • Like • 12
Lynn Mathers I agree. Wholeheartedly, new breeders will follow to the letter of the Ard Comhairle, instead of learning from the old time mentors who know that the coats with the white patches are the ones with the most correct coat in color, textures, and correctness. Those in charge of the Standard need to revisit their decision and correct their mistakes. That's their only way that this breed will continue to achieve in making a better next generation.

2 October at 20:20 • Like • 9
Lynette Murphy Many issues and points made here which need to be addressed, the first of which is, where, how & WHY this started.

2 October at 20:55 • Like • 6
Kevanna Terriers So which standard are you breeding to now?The one that gives you the most Euro ?

2 October at 23:52 • Like
Helge Kvivesen Talking about courage, maybe it's an idea not to hide behind an anonymous profile? (This is a reply to a comment that has later been removed - and I think the profile has been deleted as well)

6 October at 16:21 • Edited • Like • 7
Katalin Burovincz Personal conflicts motivated by this new rule, if I understand correctly? And so will improve the quality of hair? And is also the black color after 2 years old acceptable?
I think, if a judge is not doing a good job in Ireland, would have to punish, not the breeders around the world. Disqualificated white chest patch=End of the corruption ????? I think not!!!!

3 October at 09:24 • Like • 5
.Eve J Somers I would like to make a comment here.......I have to say that I think there are far more serious faults that should have been dragged on to the scrutiny table, ie poor shoulders, straight stifles, weak heads, etc etc........if coat is to be concentrated on then hopefully black, dry and wooly coats will be equally penalised.....there is a very large clue about the required colour in the breed's name......! Please could the initiators of this ' white patch penalty ' explain to me WHY it's such a fault......? And surely now sales of mascara will shoot up ........?

3 October at 09:42 • Like • 7
Kevanna Terriers As this white is creeping into the Kerry Blue Terrrier not only on the chest AND getting BIGGER do we want our KERRY BLUE TERRIER to become known as the KERRYBLUE +WHITE TERRIER?

3 October at 10:06 • Like
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers Since when Kevanna Terriers is the white "creeping into" the Kerry Blue Terrier and has it made the Kerry blue-white terrier yet ? Here is a picture for you from 1937 from a very famous kennel at the time.

3 October at 10:41 • Like • 14
Edbrios Kerry Blue Terriers Surely experienced breeders know that white chest patches/stripes are usually small and on some individual dogs maybe slightly bigger but these are very rare anyway and don't need anybody's concern. Unlike Kevanna Terriers we don't see any danger of our breed becoming riddled with too much white to make it no 1 fault in the breed. To be concerned about this minor issue we would need to see good number of dogs in the show ring with really large white patches and for for several years and breeders using such dogs extensively.... Maybe then we would worry but this is NOT happening. Maybe Kevanna Terriers or other members of the club can prove us wrong and tell us where are all these dogs with giant white patches parading around the show rings, we have asked this question several times already and still no answer...

3 October at 11:06 • Like • 11
True Blue Terriers In a breed with a relatively small gene pool and with registration numbers falling in the USA, why on earth would the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club seek to downgrade a Kerry for a small white patch when this has been acceptable throughout time? Does this mean that we are to eliminate from conformation shows and a breeding program, a great dog just because it has a small white patch? Really shouldn't we all who so love this breed look at issues that are more important for instance the health of the breed. To further eliminate and decrease the gene pool will have deleterious effects on the breed that we all so love!!!

3 October at 13:04 • Like • 12
William Gonzalez Perez Egerton Clarke of the English Kennels Narcunda, author of the first breed book The Popular Kerry Blue, wrote in 1928;

3 October at 14:28 • Like
William Gonzalez Perez 7 good winning specimens of the day had white on jaw and chest. but the author hoped to eradicate white from the breed,the reason uniformity of colour.

3 October at 14:36 • Like
Eve J Somers Why aren't things like upright shoulders being rigorously penalised as well......surely this is more important for the working ability of the dog than a white patch........?

3 October at 14:39 • Like • 8
Eve J Somers Or maybe white patches are so obvious, like a docked tail........bad shoulders don't seem to bother anyone much anymore........and to be honest, the white can be hidden with mascara, so will there be coat testing too.....?

3 October at 14:45 • Like • 6
William Gonzalez Perez For any working breed of terrier....colour comes second. This breed In the past, to become an Irish Kennel Club terrier champion, it was necessary for it to be in possession of a Teastas Mor certificate of gameness. These continued until the Irish kennel Club ceased to license trials in 1968.

3 October at 15:36 • Edited • Like • 1
William Gonzalez Perez will uniformity of color be put before working capability, or has uniformity of color turned so important that it be the first breed downgrade.

3 October at 17:44 • Edited • Like • 3
True Blue Terriers Here is the email address for the IKC for those wishing to express their views: ikenclub@indigo.ie & cathydelmar@hotmail.com for the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club

3 October at 17:27 • Edited • Like
True Blue Terriers Case in point! Here is my letter to both the IKC and Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club:

3 October at 17:35 • Like
True Blue Terriers I am very concerned about the addition to the KBT Standard specifically as it relates to downgrading a dog with a small white patch on its chest. We have a small gene pool as it is, and the smaller the pool gets, the more health issues will surface. Why on earth would the Dublin Irish Blue Terrier Club would seek to make this addition after it has been acceptable throughout time? This small white patch is inconsequential and a trait that is not necessarily passed on. My fear is that many great dogs will be eliminated for this addition, leaving us with dogs with less desireable attributes and more health issues! We should all be looking at how to increase the gene pool and the health of the Kerry Blue Terrier.I fear that if this passes, it will have deleterious effects on our breed. Here in the USA we already have dwindling registration numbers of Kerry Blue Terriers.

Case in point, my foundation bitch Ch Warlord's Rambunctious Fair Lady CGC HCT (Am&CAN Ch Aran Ferbane x Am Ch Warlord's Shennagins) has this small white patch. She had two litters and produced the Number One Kerry Blue Terrier 2013 GCH True Blue Madonna who won Nationals at MCKC 2012 & Best of Breed at Westminster 2013. The daughter does not have the white patch. If this standard passes, it would eliminate great Kerries like my foundation bitch from the gene pool. What a shame for the entire breed!!! I sincerely hope for a retraction of this addition!

First two attachments show the white patch on my foundation bitch. Third photo is her daughter.

Elaine Randall

3 October at 19:02 • Edited • Like • 13
Lynn Mathers First, I agree everyone should write a letter to the Irish Kennel Club. That being said, I have spent almost 20 years breeding the next generation of Kerries. I have always striven to improve on the next generation. I start with Structure, ear, tail placement and size an then work on temperament, personality, and lastly, I work on coats. I work on texture and overall color, and last and completely the least, do I worry about the size of the white patch. First of all many of you know I only breed when I need another dog to go into my own showing and breeding program. I want the best and try to breed to the best that will improve on my line. And the majority of the breeders will tell you that when you breed it's not about the dollar or the Euro's. It a financial loss to any breeder but when you are looking at the bottom line, you will have to admit that concentrating on that white patch, it's not at the top of the list, and to have the Ard Comhairle, insist that our dogs will not only be downgraded and disqualified, need to step back and rethink what is important in the long term health and genetics of this breed. They must remember we have a small gene pool to start with. So in short, wake up and smell the successes we've had even with a small white patch like those great Champions of the past.

3 October at 17:41 • Like • 12
True Blue Terriers Can't manage to attach the other two photos but they did go with the emails!

3 October at 17:41 • Like
True Blue Terriers Well said Lynn Mathers!

3 October at 17:51 • Like • 1
Alexander Cardoso Katz Why those people that are imposing this change are not here to explain themselves?

6 October at 13:45 • Like • 5
Mark McGonagle Maybe because FB isn't the place to do it? Surly there is a more professional way of dealing with it, other than social media?

6 October at 14:48 • Like • 1
Alexander Cardoso Katz Mark McGonagle It has been on facebook for a while and im just aware of it of now,when i finally sat down in front of a computer to read what it is all about.
IF theres more professional way to deal with it,just tell me,as this change will affect all the breeders in Europe,and as many of them are here on facebook,why dont discuss here?

6 October at 15:54 • Edited • Like • 6
La Cadiera Kerry Blue In my oppinion, not even one Kerry Blue breeder is breeding this breed for money Kevanna Terriers. But I ask myself, who will benefit with this change? I believe not the breed in any way ! It would be interesting to talk about health !!! not about a small blaze of white hair on the chest.

6 October at 15:02 • Like • 9
Mark McGonagle People have already been advised on how to deal with this. Email addresses have to given out on who to contact. A lot of people find the issue very confusing and frustrating without even reading the new addition?

6 October at 15:05 • Like
Katalin Burovincz Tell me please, what is the potential for breeders who live far form Ireland to tell their opinion about this very important change what you want to do. This is an open forum I think and this theme acually absolutely. Why bother you? I don't undersand at all, but I'm very curious about your opinion on this point.

6 October at 15:36 • Like • 6
Julia Klimchenko Why are white spots on the chest seem more important than the structure of the wool, the size of the wave, silky, actually himself coat color? Is the home breed only problem with white spots?
I think that the exclusion of dogs on the principle of "delete all dogs with small white spots" will do more harm to the breed than good ... in the breed and have too many dogs with very dark hair, small curl, cotton wool ...
Is there some kind of scientific justification for the exclusion of such dogs from breeding (with small white markings?)
In my kennel was not the way dogs with white spots, but I do not see a problem if they have a dog ....

7 October at 15:36 • Like • 7
Lynn Mathers The Ard Comhairle needs to take into consideration the Kerry Blue Clubs in other Nations that take their clue on the Standard based on the Irish Blue Terrier Club of Ireland. We look at your expectations of the breed and because we show in Europe and we buy and use sperm from Europe, we do everything we can do meet the Irish Standard. Why do you not take us into consideration when you are asking for comments from owners and breeders. Do the breeders in other countries not understand the standard, is that where your coming from or are above that and feel other countries aren't important enough to worry about when it comes to breeding? I personally will certainly follow what you are doing with the standard, but I will continue to breed the way I have been, and hope that those breeders that I consider my peers, and more importantly the breeders that have been doing this for many more decades than I, who I consider my mentors will continue doing what they have been doing so we don't lose the essence of the breed that was originally bred for a specific job. I hope structure and type will always be more important than white patches. I hope coat color and wave will always be important, but I hope that white patches will always be allowed in small forms because it's genetics and its inconsequential to the overall outlook of the dog.

7 October at 17:10 • Like • 12
Julia Klimchenko That is well said.
But still would like to hear - what caused the ban of white spots in the new edition of the standard. What is the reason?

7 October at 17:29 • Like • 5
Lynn Mathers I think what is more important to me isn't necessarily the cause but the individual(s) who got together knowing they had the power to make the changes. We are talking about The"TYPE" of the Kerry Blue. This Standard is supposed to cover all Kerries world wide. Why did a small group of people feel they knew better and could control everyone else?

7 October at 23:25 • Like • 5
Carol Basler I have been breeding Kerry's for 48 years. There have been white markings on most of the puppies. here have been some top dogs among them.This is a very foolish move.It is totally un needed.

8 October at 01:08 • Like • 10
Diane Ridd I can only speak from an Historical view point. The breed today is one of the healthiest of Pedigree dogs the reason is back in the 60s genes mutated and almost destroyed the Kerry, please do not take the health of the breed for granted.

8 October at 10:01 • Like • 3
Lynn Mathers Again, I respectfully disagree with the Irish Blue Terrier Club and the Ard Comhairle in their inability to accept that there are breeders around the world who have been breeding for 50 and more years who have raised generations of World Champions. The...See More

14 October at 19:00 • Like • 5

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